Joywave: Ride The Lightning Of Discontent
Ride The Lightning Of Discontent
A conversation with Joywave’s Dan Armbruster
by Ben Stephanus
“Thanks, but I actually hate Metallica,” Dan says in response to my compliment of his Master Of Puppets T-Shirt. “I actually wear this because I know it would piss Lars off to know I bought it from JCPenney for like, $11.99.”
Dan Armbruster is a person who is concerned with the quality of music. Whether it’s his own project Joywave, in which he is the chief writer and producer or what he happens to be hearing from other sources. Like anyone else who’s passionate about things he has opinions, a perspective all his own and what might come off cranky in print you can rest assured comes off thoughtful in conversation.
After reading a few pieces on Joywave over the years the focus tends to be on their base of operations, Rochester, NY. And although it is an interesting story to talk about finding international success when you’re based out of one of the lesser known rust belt cities, it’s a bit patronizing after a while, given that the real reason is the product itself. For those in the know, Dan has been chipping away at his craft in various projects over the years and has written many a catchy tune, and what I’ve personally been interested in is his creative process.
It’s worth noting that the city of Rochester, though a beautiful multi cultural center for all of the arts and rich with great people, still has some pretty rough areas. So, we sat down in a coffee shop in the suburban Mom friendly Park Ave Neighborhood to discuss what else, Rock n Roll.
Dan and I are about to get settled into a couple of window seats when I notice to my left that a white girl with dreadlocks seems to be visibly disturbed with our presence. I offer up a quick and sincere apology and she responds with a passive aggressive huff and an eye roll. Resisting the urge go all Larry David on said person, I just assume that Jah would get that all sorted out for her. On to the business of the day, the conversation goes something like this.
With Guitars: So, I’ve read some interviews and one thing I feel hasn’t been discussed a lot is your creative process. You’ve written a lot of quality material, so, I’d like to hear about that.
Dan Armbruster: So, there’s a lot of things in life that I understand now, that makes sense, but where a song comes from is still magic to me. It’s very mystifying. I do not understand it, and I spend a lot of time thinking about it. Like, this morning, as I’m sure you do, I woke up with a guitar riff in my head. So, I better go play that real quick, but I’m like 1, Why did that happen? 2, Why do I feel like I need to record that right now? and 3, Why do I feel the need to do that all the time?
And for me, there’s definitely a therapeutic aspect to writing. Like, if I don’t do that for a long period of time, I start to feel really down. Like, “What is going on? What’s wrong with me?” Exercise can be like that for me too. If there’s no physical activity for months, I’ll be like, “Whoa, I’m really depressed and I don’t understand it. So, it’s kinda like that for me. But as far as why a song occurs to me? I do not know the answer to that.
WG: Do you find the inspiration and the pick up the guitar or do you find yourself mining for it? You use a lot of electronics also.
DA: I typically write directly into Pro Tools..[pauses]..First of all, I think I’m like bad at everything, because I am bad at most things, but I know I’m not bad at songwriting. But I am bad at instruments. Like, I’m not a good guitar player. I could play guitar in a local band here, but I couldn’t be a guitar player in a band opening for The Killers or something without embarrassing myself. But technology equals the playing field and I’m pretty good at technology. So, I can edit my parts and bring it to Joey or Paul or someone else in the band and be like, “Do this.” So, I use the computer as kind of a sketch pad and I can fix things to the point of telling someone what to do, or how I want it to sound I guess. Frequently, as far as songwriting, things happen both ways. Like, I’ll have an idea and I’ll know exactly what I want it to sound like, or I’ll sketch things in my phone. I’ve found the last couple of years I started recording into Garage Band to sketch out ideas because it’s bad, and it sounds bad. So, it forces an extra step in the process. Like a lot of my early things, I would demo into Pro Tools, but I would spend 3 days on the demo, and then a year later when it cam time to record the song for real, I was very married to the production and I’d be like, “I don’t wanna change that keyboard sound. I like that keyboard sound.” With Garage Band on the iPad it all sounds like death, so you’re forced to redo it and 2 years down the road when you’re pulling all these demos out you’re like, “I want this on the record, this on the record and this on the record. Then you have to redo everything in the same room at the same time. You learn a lot about what you want the record to sound like. You’re informed by the previous few years of your life and experiences. So, you can go, “Well, I didn’t like this thing from the last record”, and maybe it’s present in your demo from 2 years ago. But when you have to redo everything anyways it’s real easy to part with it and like, So the song is great, the production is not great. You can produce it differently now.
WG: So, you need something to force you to edit?
DA: Yea, it’s nice to have a buffer.
WG: Otherwise, you might say, “Well this is good enough”, even though it’s not great.
DA: Like, 30 or 40 years before now, making a demo on a home recorder was part of the process. But then you go into the studio with a producer and engineer that knows what they’re doing. Then you can use the demo as a template maybe, but you’re making it better. So, when you’re starting in Pro Tools, you could easily start and end in Pro Tools, on the same day. It’s kinda like a check and balance thing. It’s something that I did adhere to on the 2nd record and that I didn’t on record 1. On record 1 a lot of the songs were very close to the demo version, where I would re sing the vocal into a much better mic, or retrack the guitar. Where we were using amp sims before and now we’re using real amps and tracking real drums, but a lot of the programmed stuff I kept. There are times where I find I’m like mining for things but I think it results in something less good. There’s been specific examples where I wasn’t even intending to write a song and that would happen. Like, Native Instruments has this software called ‘Contact’. It’s a sampler thing and Pro Tools doesn’t have a built in sampler. So, I got that and I was playing around with it. I was doing a lot of production work for the band Kopps at the time. I was messing around with Patricia’s voice and that became ‘Tongues’. I didn’t mean for that to happen. I wasn’t trying to write a song. I was just messing around with the software and like, 20 minutes in I was like, “Oh, this is cool. I should turn this into something.” And now, I’m really glad I did because that was the song that ended up getting us signed and leading us on our journey.
WG: Yea sometimes you can sort of stumble into things.
DA: Right.
WG: What makes a song great?
DA:There’s a felling that I get that’s like… I guess it’s kinda like Goosebumps? When I hear a great song, I get that feeling, and when I write a great song I get that feeling. Or, when I’m working on something and it clicks, I get that feeling. Especially with melodies. The relationship between whatever the root note is, and wherever I’m at with the melody will cause that feeling. On the new record, the chorus of “When You’re Bored” gives me that feeling. And when I made that melody, I knew that chorus was exactly what I needed it to be. So, it’s like this Spidey Sense thing. I think it’s that feeling that I rely on the most and I can’t describe it.
WG: It’s your Muse.
DA: I guess. But it’s upsetting because I don’t understand it and I want to like, break it down into science and math so I can explain it. So I can have it all the time and control it, but I can’t because it controls me. Ya know?
WG: I do.
DA: What if it goes away?
WG: And it never comes back?
DA: But it’s a scary thing. That’s the scariest thing. When you’re not understanding the thing right in front of you. It probably sounds crazy. I feel like everbody has it with something. Like, maybe you’re really good at business. Or if you’re a workaholic. Maybe that’s what it is. I don’t know.
WG: Which brings us to another topic I wanted to discuss. Chasing the unknown.
DA: Chasing the dragon. That’s heroin right?
WG: I hope. But in terms of spirituality. The thing that flips the switch in ya. Do you think there’s a source you can pull from? I had a thought years back that science seeks to solve the mystery and spirituality is there to celebrate it, and those two things don’t have to be at odds. Does spirituality ever play a role for you?
DA: I don’t know. My family was very religious growing up. I think that everyone has a large gaping hole in them, and I think that people plug different things into it. And you can plug anything you want into it. I think that’s the hole people plug religion into. Other people plug other stuff in and I think I largely plug music into it. Like, when something’s wrong, the meditative action of writing, thinking and organizing chords and sounds in a way that gives me a feeling that you describe as High I guess? When you’re onto something, you feel your brain release the dopamine or serotonin or whatever. I don’t know my brain chemistry but you know what I mean.
WG: It’s a change of consciousness.
DA: But what were you saying before about science and math vs spirituality?
WG: See, I wouldn’t even say versus. I think they have different functions that can coexist in the human experience.
DA: But that’s something I want to touch on because it upsets me. Whenever I meet a new artist I like to talk to them about where they think music comes from. Sometimes the answer is, to my dismay, something along the lines of. “It’s better than getting a job”, and that’s upsetting to me because it’s a math and science thing. Like, “I somehow figured out the code”, or how to make a song that works.
WG: Like they’re pulling a trick on you.
DA: Right. Like they’re using dark magic. Like, using music theory to make the thing that is appealing to the highest percentage of people listening, which is definitely a thing you can do.
WG: A lot of music SOUNDS like that to me.
DA: Right. But it’s a little upsetting when you’re an artist, because it’s a job. I get why that would be appealing to for some people, but I would never do this as just a job. There are days like… with touring right? It’s okay, like, I get through it. But there are some days where I’m like, I’d rather be working at Staples today.
WG: Of course! Because you can go home.
DA: Yes. Like, once I clock out, I don’t care what my boss at my retail job told me to do today. And if I get fired, I’ll just get a job at the place next door, and then the one next to that. There’s a simplicity to it that I think is enviable. With THIS it’s like, never ending. It’s tiring. The creative part is what makes it worth it to me. I can’t always be on. I’m not a naturally outgoing person, but I’ve learned to get by and convince people that I’m human. Which was hard for me for a while. But when that gets hard I just remember that by the end of 6 months or by the end of a year, the reward is that I get to go back and make my vision again. I’m gonna be sitting at the computer again, engineering it, producing it, and doing the whole thing, ya know?
WG: So, you would do this if it wasn’t a career?
DA: Yea, I mean, I did for like 15 years. I think I made less than $7,000 for every year of my life until I was like, 29. The first time I got paid for music I was 29 or 30, and it wasn’t a lot.
WG: That’s still a moment though.
DA: Yea, it’s cool but it’s bad business to say you don’t care. Like, that’s how the airline industry takes advantage of pilots. “Well, you like to fly, don’t you? You’re not in it for the money, you’re in it to fly.”
[Laughter}
WG: Are you trying to communicate a feeling to your audience?
DA: Yea. In every song.
WG: And that’s tricky right? Because the feeling you might get from your music isn’t necessarily what someone in the audience might get.
DA: Right. Someone might walk away with a different interpretation or feeling. There’s a lot of people who’ve said to me like, “Your music really helped me through a tough time” I’m a bit mystified by that because lyrically, it’s not overwhelmingly positive. It pretty much exists in a negative space.
WG: It’s a little cynical I guess, but it’s not like Sun Kil Moon or something. I love that stuff, but you know what I’m sayin’.
DA: Right. It’s not like [In a slightly mocking tone}, ‘Everything’s going to be fun’ or anything like that. But maybe it’s more like the thing, depending on your mood, you feed the mood to feel better. Do you listen to happy songs when you’re sad, or do you listen to sad songs when you’re sad?
WG: I listen to sad songs when I’m sad because it’s nice to know I’m not the only one. It’s connecting with people. There’s a social aspect to art. Like, if you’re doing it just for your own mind it becomes a little masturbatory.
DA: It is. In college I was a history major. So, I think about the really inflated ego about what I’m doing. Like, would anybody really care about the documentary of my life? But I’ve found that some people can identify with certain parts of certain songs. Some people are like, “I’ve never felt that way, but I like the song.” And that’s okay. I’m gonna make it either way cause that’s how I decided to document my time. If I wasn’t doing it with music I would be doing it with something else. Writing I guess is what you do in college. But like, these Mix Tapes we’ve done over time are these exercises where I would try to do things as 1 concept or like, 1 story. And those are things we’ll try to do in 2 or 3 weeks where we’d really set a time limit. I don’t know if we’ll ever do that again. But at the time if we had nothing going on, it was a fun musical exercise vs a record which is a collection of stories from your life.
WG: Do you find you come up with your best ideas when you’re just messin’ around?
DA: [Pauses} Sometimes. But I think the best songs I’ve written… I mean, definitely some catchy hooks like that have shown up in different places. But I think the best songs I’ve written are the ones that I sat down with the intent to write, because I knew I had, maybe not the whole song in my head, but most of it. A feeling that I’m chasing.
WG: Like, you felt like you had to get to the bottom of something at that moment.
DA: Yea, and sometimes it is just chasing a feeling. It’s like a color or a warmth. Something where I know it’s that thing I’m gonna pull out of me and I know it’ll become a song. You sit down and you just do it. Like, our song Destruction. I was at a concert. An A&R guy put me on the list for this show that was coming through Rochester. So, I went to it and the only people that were there were these 15 year olds. I was like, “Wow. Why did I come to this?”
WG: The party that makes you feel your age.
DA: Yea yea! And then the change over music was all these 90’s jams like “Pony”(Ginuiwine), and stuff. I’m like, all these songs came out while these kids were being born and I almost had a panic attack. Like. I want these kids to hear something that’s terrifying. I didn’t even wait for the band to come on stage. I left Water Street, drove straight home and made the song over night. I finished at 10am and if you listen to it there’s like a scary sound [mouthing a throaty static sound], It’s a harmonizer that’s totally in the wrong key. A lot of it just sounds like Jackylls. And the thing that I knew in that moment I wanted to expose was like, those kids listening to slow jams. But I was chasing that feeling.
WG: Sometime’s you might need something to rail against in order to create?
DA: Yea, totally. Music bothers me. A lot. We get played on the radio a fair amount now, and a lot of the things around it, really bother me. The Lumineers? Like, I’m sorry to the Lumineers but it’s really upsetting. Like, why?! Maybe that’s real and feels good to them but I’ve never felt like that.
WG: It’s a double edged sword, because on the one hand, you’re beginning to wonder about the crowd you’ve been grouped with.
DA: Yes.
WG: But at the same time, that’s the same crowd you’re trying to rail against. That’s the battle that you’re fighting.
DA: The frontlines. You hope that maybe some people might leave with you that day.
WG: Do you look for momentum in music?
DA: I typically like things where I have to like the whole album. I don’t make playlists.
WG: You’re not a mix tape guy, ironically.
DA: If someone has one good song I’m like, I don’t need that.
WG: Have you ever written something that you know has all the components, but it’s not greater than the sum of it’s parts and it drives you nuts?
DA: Yea, definitely. Like you check all the boxes and it doesn’t give you that feeling. I can think of a couple of songs that go through 6 or 7 revisions and it’s just not happening. But maybe I’ll go back to the song and be glad to have it. Cause there’s a lot of songs where I’ll spend 45 minutes on it and I’m like, ‘Okay. This is giving me the feeling’, and I’ll know what to do when we get in the studio, and I’ll spend time on the tones and stuff. But I know what I want overall and the 6 parts I need to be there are all there.
WG: Do you go through writers block?
DA: Ummm…. If you asked me right now to write you a song, I would say “yes”, but I probably wouldn’t come up with anything good.. But I also think about songs a lot. Like, things I call shower ideas. Like mowing the lawn was really big for me growing up. I’d be mowing the lawn then something would all of a sudden hit me and I’d be like ‘Oh shit!’ So, I don’t know. I think writers block is one of my greatest fears. I remember watching VH1 Behind The Music where the guy from The Goo Goo Dolls said he had writers block for 5 years and I was like, ‘That can happen?!’ But it hasn’t happened for me cause I just start to miss it. The thing I’ve never set out to do was sit down and write hit songs. Any time I’ve tried to do that in my life I end up with something disastrous. So, if the only goal is to make something that’s real to you, or capturing your experience, then you can always meet that goal. Other people might not love it, or it might not be the catchiest thing. I guess like, good or bad don’t really exist? You either accomplished your goal or you didn’t. So, if I wanted to write a song about sitting down and having chamomile [With Guitars drink of choice} and coffee this morning, I could do that very easily. I think you just have to have a goal. Maybe writers block is not knowing what you’re trying to accomplish. Maybe writers block is endlessly mining on your guitar thinking. ‘There’s gotta be something in this for me.’ But you don’t know what you’re trying to do.
WG: Do you think libido and creative drive are connected?
DA: I think-not to plug our record- but I think contentment has a lot to do with it. Like if I were content with everything in my life, I don’t think I would ever explore a song. I do it because something’s wrong and that’s my way of dealing with it. So, I think a lot of these legacy artists, when they become Zillionaires and get families and stuff… Think about Dave Grohl. I don’t know what Dave Grohl feels on a daily basis, but I hope it’s just, “Wow. My life is awesome”, and that’s probably pretty hard to put into a song. Maybe some people can relate to that but if I heard that I’d just go, ‘Nah’, and turn it off. “Wow. My Life Is Awesome” by The Foo Fighters [With Guitars finds this last bit particularly hilarious]. That’s what I’ve always associated the age thing with. It’s not an age thing. It’s that they have a long track record with success. And you can do one of two things; You can either say, ‘well, I already made that’, so you can avoid these 4 chords because that’s this other song; or, you try to replicate the success from earlier in your career and both things are bad. So, I don’t know what the answer is with that.
WG: So, once the happiness hits then the Rock n Roll is just kind of over with?
DA: Like, all the music I associate with as real, or something I really connect with is never, ‘Everything is awesome.’ So, once everything gets awesome maybe it becomes harder to believe the person. Or maybe they just don’t feel like doing that. Like, I remember when I was a teenager, I really liked Dashboard Confessional a lot. He got me. He knew that girls weren’t being nice to me. He had a lot of songs about it. But then all of a sudden, his records got really happy. Like, he was understandably stoked that people were connecting, right? Like, I’m 30 and I never felt that everything would go right for me and now it is and I’m happy. But I was like, “I’m out man. Girls are still being mean to me.”
WG: What’s that dude’s name from Dashboard again? I’m blankin’.
DA: [Dramatically leans face into phone recording our discussion and firmly states}, Chris. Ender. Carrabba.
After the recording stopped the conversation drifted elsewhere. Some disagreements about Shoegaze, to some agreements about the US’s current political situation, (Sucks), politically charged music (Mostly sucks with exceptions), and alcohol, something Dan had recently taken a break from, making touring slightly more difficult without the social lubricant. I’m sure there’s a Joywave song in there somewhere for him to pin down.
Bruce Springsteen once said, “In order to be good at this rock n roll thing, you’ve gotta have something bothering you like, all the time.” Armbruster seems to share a similar view, and maybe that’s consistent with his whole philosophy given that The Boss has had a lot of strong latter day career output, and doesn’t seem to be content with much. Dan has pulled off the hat trick of giving us his diary while making it all danceable and fun to sing along with. Calling it confessional writing of course wouldn’t be accurate seeing that you couldn’t hear a song like “Doubt” sitting next to anything off of Joni Mitchell’s ‘Blue’. So, this does leave some questions. What’s next for the Joywave catalog? I suppose it depends on the emotional life of their chief writer and producer. Will it be a darker record? Will they revisit the Mix Tape idea just for kicks? Will the dreadlocked stranger we met in the beginning of this story ever be Iron, like a Lion in Zion? I sure hope so. One thing is for certain; It’s comforting to know that there are professionals out there like Dan who are making music not just because he wants to, but because he HAS to.
As we were getting out of our seats at the conclusion of our chat, a mother (presumably suburban), approached us and complimented Dan about Joywave. “I just wanted to say that my daughter and I really love your band”, she said enthusiastically.
Dan graciously accepted the kind words, and before we leave I thanked him for sitting down with me for this article, citing that I’m aware that his time is valuable. In a manner in which I was unsure if he meant for me to hear him, he replied with a soft, “It’s not really though”, and exited the café.
Post Script: Joywave are currently out on the road with a criminally underrated Rochester band called The Demos. You can keep up with both bands by clicking the links below.